I spent the afternoon debating the age old argument of legalizing dope after commenting on an article at Pajamas media. Here’s the link:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/libertarians-need-to-rethink-support-for-drug-legalization/comment-page-2/#comment-471591
Pajama Media has rules about civility which I respect so I left out some critical comments. Here is the back and forth between myself and “truthHugger”.——
I’m jumping in here. This is an area I’ve spent a lot of time in. I did a post explaining part but not all the problems with legalizing drugs. I’ll put it at the bottom. Here’s the rub. Like I said in the post legalizing drugs is like peeling an onion. The more layers you pull off the worse it smells.
Most libertarians I know that like the free drug argument have two common traits. One- they usually use weed or something along that line. Not the hardcore crack/meth/oxy drugs that kill people. Just weed, or as one of the comments said- a vegetable. Two- The active libertarian does not work or live or suffer dealing with the hardcore drug user. Their argument is a classroom argument, not a real world argument. I’ve seen the end result of hardcore drug use. Meth, crack, prescription pills. I’ve actually seen it kill the user and more often kill an innocent. Legalizing anything with that kind of power and put it in the hands of people who can’t control it is stupid and dangerous. We do live in a society where our right to screw up ends at the nose of the guy next to us. There has to be controls on behavior.
WsGraves repeats an urban myth about prisons and drug use. The prisons are not filled with drug users. In fact, I can tell you with certainty, after twenty years on the job, that drug users seldom end up in prison. Traffickers yes, but usually not for long on their first several offenses. You have to REALLY screw up to get sent to prison from state court. Feds are a little different, but their impact is small compared to the overall prison population. Do you go to jail if caught? Sure, but as a whole you will end up with bail and then a fine. Half the judges in our system are current or former weed smokers (being a lawyer/judge does not require a good moral or drug free background). One juvenile judge, frustrated with the juvie arrests for dope, said in OPEN court, “I don’t see the problem here, when I was in college I did everything but drink the bong water!” Great. The message we want sent to kid too young to really grasp the danger.
The greatest lie in this “war” on drugs is that it is a war. It is not. In a war, I get to kill the bad guy with my gun. In this “war” I have to find probable cause then arrest the guy. Obama’s new way of fighting terrorism aside, what kind of way is that to fight a war?! Seriously? If the cops could shoot the dealers on the street corners like rabbits, your drug usage would drop significantly. So let’s put that whole “war” thing aside. It’s a joke.
In my post (feel free to link and read) I cover some of the issues like juvenile use, taxes, and the great issue for all trial lawyers- liability. I didn’t cover the violence of drugs, trying to keep the post lighthearted. However, anyone who thinks legalizing drugs will stem drug related violence is missing the point. Drug dealers aren’t killing each other and innocent people over the drugs, they are killing over the MONEY!! It is always about the money. In one article I wrote I tried to give an example of just what would happen if we legalized drugs. Let me shorten it up for this post. If you have one drug dealer (a pure cash/entrepreneurial business if there is one) selling drugs for, let’s say, twenty dollars a rock on a street corner and another one shows up on the opposite street corner selling for ten dollars a rock, you are going to have a conflict. First, there is the territory issue, the other drug dealer is intruding. Second, there is the income loss issue. Crackheads are always looking for the cheapest deal, they’re crackheads after all and holding a job is out of the question. Outside prostitution and theft(robbery/burglary/check fraud/ID theft/etc.) they don’t really make the cash. So dealer #1’s customers are going to dealer #2. Do you think that will stand? Do you think the dealer, probably a low end, uneducated, socially challenged young man, is going to call his lawyer and sue? Complain to the city about some kind of license infringement? No. He’s going to do what he did before drugs were legal and put a beating on or a bullet in the other guy. I won’t go into drug dealer ripoffs like the one my City suffered a couple of days ago where the bad guy pistol whipped the woman and then fled only to end up in a shootout with the police, which got him killed. Nor will I take the time to list the dead bodies from the wrecks, beatings, stabbings, shootings, and drowning related to drug use and the money surrounding it.
A couple of you bounced around the real problem with legalizing drugs and that is legalizing behavior that hurt you and the people around you. Listen, I’m a libertarian at heart. I could give a rat’s rear end if you want to smoke, poke, or inhale yourself to death- as long as you aren’t stoned driving there, or you aren’t ripping me and my friends off to get the money to do it. Don’t care. However, it never works out like that. There are always consequences impacting the people around the doper. Your wife or husband, mom or dad, kids, friends, co-workers, or some innocent somebody that just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve worked hundreds of robberies related to dopers robbing people (they like little old ladies and young women) so they could get the money for the next fix. I’ve worked thousands of burglaries and thefts for the same reason. None of you supporting legalizing drugs deal with this. Is the government going to pay for it? Will it pay enough to support the habit of your hardened doper, or your weekend smoker?
Worse, and my last point. My Captain told me this twenty-five years ago. “Here’s the problem with legalizing dope. Say you have a ten year old son who comes to you and says, “Dad, I want to smoke dope.” You can go ahead and tell him about the dangers, the long term effects, the way it can stunt or end your chances of a normal life (good job, decent wife, kids, income, etc. etc.). You can do all of that and say “Son, I don’t think doing drugs is a good idea.” At which point he’ll say, “But Dad, the government says it is.” At that point all of your arguments are mute. Don’t believe me?
In 1996 I was assigned to a street crimes unit that dealt with street level crime and gangs. We ran across and tried to help a lot of kids from 12 to 18. I saw twelve year old girls giving oral sex to their “boyfriends” as an act of friendship. When I told them it was wrong, and it is by the way, they would say, “But it’s not sex.” (Sound familiar?) When I caught them with drugs they would get upset. “Why are you giving me a hard time about using drugs. It’s no big deal. The President does it!” Believe me when I tell you when faced with that answer, it leaves you very little wiggle room.
http://truthandcommonsense.com/2009/06/08/peeling-the-onion-the-argument-over-legalizing-
Here is TruthHugger’s response–
90. TruthHugger:
aercher52,
Looks like you swallowed the governments whole load of bullshit… Good regurgitation though.
Age Limit: Currently underage individuals regularly report in surveys that it is EASIER to get Pot than Alcohol. This is because alcohol is regulated and there are laws in place which make adults not so keen to buy beer for kids.
When I argue the legalization question with someone I always start at the top layer. “So, you want to legalize marijuana, just open the gates, so to speak.” I get the “Oh hell yes!” answer. “Fine, so everybody can smoke dope right?” The other guy is reaching for his pipe was we speak. “Absolutely!” I continue, “So, everybody, including twelve year olds??”
This is a stupid argument, but one that the “For The Children” dupes love. ALL available evidence indicates that Marijuana could be legalized and regulated just like alcohol and tobacco. At worst, it would still be easy for kids to get, at best it would become as difficult as Alcohol. Further, speaking of Alcohol… alcohol, the legal intoxicant, has far worse consequences for children than Pot, both from a long term and short term perspective. Finally, on this topic… “For The Children” is a false argument. Children are the responsibility of their parents. If they inbibe in a drug, legal or illegal, it is the fault and responsibility of the parents. Laws should not exist to deny pot to all ‘because of the children’. Please go peddle bleeding heart bullshit at DailyKos.
I start out by saying, “I have to ask, how do you plan to collect taxes on what is basically a backyard industry?
Well, gosh I dunno… HOW ABOUT THE SAME WAY WE DID FOR ALCOHOL post-prohibition?
In our city there were repeated shootings between the rival dope growers and traffickers…
Yes, and in the 1920’s we saw the same thing among the moonshiners and gangsters. Once that shit was legal though… well what happened? People could purchase their drug legally, rather than risk getting arrested, so they went legit and the crime dried up.
“Let us agree for the moment that marijuana is legalized by the Government. If that is true, does that mean the government becomes responsible for regulating the drug?
And here I thought I had heard the dumbest arguments for prohibition… you just beat the best!
Your article, if it can be called that, is flawed beyond belief. It’s arguments are vaccous strawmen that uyou build and bust with Fakie McStoner your imaginary debate opponent.
As for what you tell your kid? You tell them what you tell them about alcohol. My parents told me about drugs and I didn’t drink until I was 21 and didn’t smoke pot before I was 25.
But, I guess you’re one of those ’special’ conservatives that want small government unless its enforcing your retarded beliefs.
——————-
Man, I haven’t been called retarded in years. Now I’ve been called many things by dopers, but usually, if they are stoned, it comes out garbled and disjointed, but I’m sure it was an insult. TruthHugger must have missed history class, or worse, probably is a little younger and was never taught history with any veracity. He somehow thinks ending prohibition stopped organized crime completely. In addition, I think he means well by comparing drugs to alcohol, but I can’t really support the concept of a production market for weed like the Miller brewing company.
Here’s my response–
TruthHugger-
Here’s the problem with your problem with what I said. Yes, kids can get weed easier or as easy (frankly I’ll argue alcohol is more plentiful thus “easier” to access, but let’s stay on point) as alcohol, so what? It doesn’t change the argument or the problem. Kids should not be smoking dope. However, by legalizing it, you remove one of the barriers to the drug. Now you have to deal with weed behind the counter at the 7-11 next to the Playboy. Or “smoke my weed” commercials from major companies like Johnson and Johnson or G.E. in magazines, on TV, or on the radio. Is that a good thing? Just so some adult dopers can get their weed and not worry about 5-0 snatching them up?
Not to mention the problem we have now with homeless drunks and other vagrants caused by too much booze will be joined by a new group of homeless dopers. Before you say your favorite word, read about Europe and the Demark/Holland/Netherlands experiment with open drug use. The government provided everything, being a doper was accepted. It was glorious and all the “free my dope” advocates across the world pointed to the success. Well, they aren’t pointing now because the experiment failed. Towns were ruined by the presence of the slovenly, criminal, useless career doper. The towns went as far as posting “No dopers here” type signs and running people out. The drag on society was significant. Is it worth damaging all of society at some level for a personal desire to be legal?
You still don’t deal with the argument of whether or not kids should have access and use weed (and let’s keep it to weed, but the argument seems to be about legalizing drugs of all types). If it is legal, then prepare to have even dumber kids that we deal with now. If you decide to make it illegal for kids to use it, then I ask this; What is the age limit? What are the penalties? Remember as WsGraves puts it too many people are in jail for drug use now, so what is the interdiction plan for stopping kids from using. Talking to them? And if that doesn’t work out, throw up your hands and say “oh well”? Then you have to deal with the drug dealers (Who will be anybody and everybody if they can access the huge cash payoff that comes with dealing drugs and having no fear of criminal penalties.) who refuse to ignore the large cash market that is the juvenile population. They want it, they have the money, somebody is going to sell it to them.
As far “crime drying up” you must have missed your history class or any of the three “Godfather” movies. Crime didn’t dry up, it went into the drug trade!! They used many of the same routes they used to bring the booze in! Crime will find a harder drug to sell, or another product even more dangerous than weed. They are CRIMINALS!! It is what they do! When alcohol went legit did all the prohibition era criminals wipe their brows and say “Whew, I’m sure glad booze is legal. I was really having a crisis of conscience here. I’m starting my brewery tomorrow!” If so, where is Al Capone’s brewery? Other than Joe Kennedy, name one that went to the legal side and stayed there. I’m sure there are some, but not a bunch. People will always seek what they can’t have! And somebody will sell it to them. Dude, put the bong down!
Also, you seem to like studies, some of which you cite here that say long term pot use isn’t as dangerous as long term alcohol use. Now, that’s a funny way of putting it. It’s like saying AIDS is far worse than syphilis, so let’s all do some syphilis. Ah, come on, you can do better than that! The fact is there are studies, some very current, which I read that indicate long term marijuana use (steady use like an alcoholic would drink) does cause serious brain impairment. That aside, I can tell you from street level experience after watching kids grow up using the weed daily, that it makes them dumber than a hammer. As for saying that parents are responsible for their kids, I agree. However, the reality in the real world is that kids are subjected to massive pressures and influences that even the best parent simply cannot deflect all the time. Adding legal drugs, even pot, is just one more problem. Also, you say the parents are responsible, but you know and I know they are limited in their power because of exactly that kind of “me first” attitude I see with you. In my grandfather’s day, if someone was harming the kids the parents would ban together and confront that person and nobody sued anyone or called the police. It was handled. For example, let’s say a parent with young children is living next to a doper whose behavior is negatively influencing the kids. Stoned, dirty, verbally abusive, even offering the dope to the kids for fun. What should the parent do? Call the cops? For what? It’s LEGAL now! So, in your opinion that parent must do something to protect his/her child. The doper won’t listen, as a matter of fact, he’s quite threatening, due to his constant drug use. What is their options? Here’s an idea, burn the house down. No doper, no drugs, no problem. Clean off the slab and re-sell the land to someone who won’t ruin your kids.
Now as far as taxes. I’m not sure where you are going here. Are you in favor of a larger government with a special agency set up to track and collect taxes? Of course you compare what the market and production methods might become for marijuana to what happened to alcohol post prohibition. I’m not sure what to say. Are you advocating a Jim Beam, Millers, Anheuser-Busch type industry for the production of weed? Now you’ve got me thinking. Unlike the initial expense of setting up a brewery for alcohol production, growing weed in your home is far less expensive. Heck, you could grab some potting soil, a bedroom, some lights, fertilizer and a watering can and you are in! So, why buy from Miller? Unless, some government politician from the “marijuana making capital of the world” made it illegal to own the plants personally. Just thinking out loud…
Now for my argument about legalizing drugs and making the government responsible. Understand, who is going to distribute it? Pay for it? Regulate its quality? You have to regulate the quality because the first death, injury or harm caused by weed the government is going to jump all over it. It is the nature of that beast. I don’t like it, but it is the way it works, sadly. Look at something as simple as cellphones, cable/satellite television and the Internet. The government is all OVER this stuff because of the cash involved.
Will the government pay for it? Right now we have stories of SSI checks going straight to bars for alcoholic recipients, what’s the difference? If you don’t think the government will get involved at all levels, remember FDR took care of the issue about growing something and using yourself when he managed to get the Supreme Court to agree it still violates the commerce clause. If marijuana is legal, and used as a medicine (crazy idea huh, that a government would recognize it as a medicine…uh, never mind…) won’t the government be forced to provide it, at a federal level? That means your money, the ones you’d buy your dope with, is being taken as taxes to pay for some other idiot who managed to fill out all the forms and qualify. There would be Weed for Humanity organizations run by former a President (Clinton comes to mind for some reason); A minority or diversity program to make sure all minorities can get their weed, nothing worse than weed racism; And probably some huge money swamped weed lobby that caters to politicians who want everyone out here in America to get stoned at least once a week. It will make living in a world gone mad easier to deal with. I can see Barney Frank now, suddenly recognizing a weed plant (unlike the ones in his boyfriend’s apartment) and saying that all people should have access to their own weed patch in their home. It is the American dream. (Fanny Weed/Freddie Smack?) Just thinking out loud…
As for not starting to smoke and drink until your were twenty-five. Good. That means anything bad that happens to you is your fault; poor job, bad women, messed up kids (Boy, have I seen that since the “sixties” and “seventies” generation grew up, had kids and instilled no values in them out of guilt!), lack of finances and owning a fabulous 1996 Buick with most of its rims still intact.
Here’s my point. You are an adult. You want to smoke dope I could care less. If you manage to control it so it doesn’t control you, great. I had a friend who did a little too much when he was younger and I saw it affected his judgment and career. He got it under control and today is a millionaire. God love him for it. However, if anyone tries to sell, give, or try to influence my kids with drugs, because they think they have a libertarian right to do so, they will deal with me, the parent. Which makes me wonder if a doper can smoke through a straw.
Just saying…
