Over at flopping aces the debate goes on about the Arizona law. I posted what we used to refer to as a training exercise to see what they would do. I decided to post it here for comment. Do your best to work your way through the problems encountered, trying to avoid being sued or jailed.
I would love to see the law work as intended, but the police side of it won’t. However, there seems to be a stronger push to make businesses accountable for employing illegals. THAT will make the big difference.
On the police side I challenge all of you to solve this situation and NOT end up occupying the “Stacy Koon” memorial upper bunk at your closest federal institution.
Here it goes.
Car full of Hispanics (and we’ll concentrate on Hispanics for now) drives by. Five in the car. Three stare straight ahead wishing you didn’t exist. Two stare at you like you had three heads. The car is going in the opposite direction away from the border which is ten miles away.
1. What do you do? Do you turn around? Why? (Remember this may end up in local/state/federal/civil court many years from now.)
2. To continue the scenario let’s say we do manage to turn around and nobody asks that question in court. We are behind the car. It has no major flaws, no traffic violations etc. How long are you going to follow it to find one? Or are you going to stop it because of the occupants and make something up later? (Remember, ethics, lying, honor, etc.)
3. So we have the car stopped. The driver you own. Driving is a privilege and the driver MUST have a drivers license etc. What about the four other occupants? The SP has ruled that an officer, for his safety, can have the occupant exit or stay in the car, pat them down (depending on circumstances) and do some other basic movements. The SP has ruled you can ask them for ID. It has also ruled that unless the person is a subject of an investigation they don’t have to talk to you, or provide you with that ID. Here the scenario splits.
4. They talk and their stories suck. But here is a problem, inside the US if you begin to believe the suspects are telling you information that may lead to probable cause for their arrest, you have to read them Miranda. Where that occurs in the investigation varies depending on the court rulings. (Remember we are a nation built on the “rule of law” and case precedent is the way we maintain those laws.) But at some point you have to tell them to shut up.
5. They refuse to talk to you exercising their 5th amendment rights they gained possession of the second they crossed into the nation, yes aggravating but a reality (Remember the whole blow up over the Xmas day bomber and his Miranda rights?).
6. Now you have the driver, who is turns out to be legal. He has a DL and all the paperwork. He vouches for those in the car as also being legal. Do you let them go? Your gut says they are illegals. How long can you detain them to prove it?
7. The driver has no DL but insists he is a legal resident and gives you a name, DOB, but can’t remember his SSN. You run him and get nothing back. It could be your computer, it could be your spelling, it could be that he is lying. You don’t know. However, the law is circular on this and is a good spot for you to fall into a trap and gain the vaunted Stacy Koon memorial upper bunk in a federal prison. In America, a green card holder MUST have his paperwork with him. But a citizen or any other person you have contact with does not have to have an ID with him. We are so used to carrying it we don’t realize outside driving, we are exempt from carrying ID. (Which is a good thing) So by being an illegal without the paperwork and either not talking or giving a confusing story you are pretty much on solid ground.
8. Now here you sit. The driver is either legal or illegal. The passengers are legal or illegal but they aren’t much help. If you demand ID from them, and keep them detained against their will if they can’t provide it, you are sued. If you let them go, as you may have to do, what good is the law? Like I said, the driver can be taken in for no DL (I’m assuming it is an arrestable offense in AZ). Once at the station in lawful custody you will have time to investigate his status. So what is your next step? Do you take them all in?
9. You are now at the station with either just the driver or the whole bunch. Depends on how long you are willing to go to prison for, I guess. You pick up the phone and call ICE (In my experience sending carrier pigeons with notes attached works better, but I digress.) and find ICE can’t help you. They have no record of your guys, nor should they. “Hello, this is officer Smith. I have some people here I think are illegals. Can you help me?” “Sure, what are their names?” “They won’t say.” “Oh, why do you think they are illegals?” “Cause they are Mexicans near the border and have no ID on them.” “What??? click….” “Hello. Hello?”
10. Or now that Obama is pissed it is worse. You call ICE and get a message that ICE is no longer taking phone calls from any law enforcement agency in Arizona, because you are bad, bad people.
11. Now you have them, can’t verify them, they are under arrest for something they may or may not be guilty of. What are you going to do now? Your sergeant, two years from retirement and in the drop plan, sticks his head in the door of the report room and asks how things are going. What he is really saying is “FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! I HAVE TWO YEARS TO GO, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ME!!”
12. How do you transfer the subjects to federal custody and based on what? What state charges are you going to file and based on what evidence? Do you kick them loose, hoping they will be content with just getting released and not come back to sue you? (Remember the case in Texas where a rancher on his OWN property detained two illegals at gunpoint for the feds? They sued him for unlawful detainment and won! WON! They were committing a federal offense, trespassing and were detained for the offense by a citizen of THIS nation and THEY WON!)
Will the law work sometimes? Sure, if all things go perfectly. But on the street that very seldom happens. Cops are people, the law is written poorly, the intent is good but the execution will be poorly done. Worse the same lawyers that wrote it will be the first to condemn the cops for “screwing it up.”
Add to all of this the numbers. There are 430,000 illegals in Arizona alone. How many contacts and traffic stops will it take to clear them out?
But if you were to make it illegal to work in Arizona by fining and jailing the business owners and cutting off any state assistance (WIC, schools, medicaid, etc.) the illegals would leave on their own accord and the police could concentrate on other problems other than border security.
