First, I love the TCTH gang. I discovered them during the Zimmerman shooting. They did great work detailing the case- and getting it right from the beginning. I figured out what happened in five minutes- thug beats man who he thought wasn’t armed- and was wrong.
Over and over again, they have jumped on bad policing, bad media, bad agendas (Fast and Furious and IRS scandals) and have been proven right in the end. But like Tiger Woods in his prime, even they can send one into the pond. I fear, this is that one. Trouble is when you see conspiracies everywhere, and are right most of the time, when one looks like it, but isn’t, you can’t tell it apart.
First, to the “conspiracy.” To set up hundreds of bikers so they can be shot down in public by police, thus advancing an anti-gun/anti-biker agenda would take what? Think through that for a second. How many people, including armed bikers, do you have to get to coordinate such an operation? How many police, all decent people, would go along with such a murdering spree. It isn’t like Waco PD has it out for a HUNDRED bikers!
Sometimes a complex problem is solved by simply drawing the straightest line from beginning to end. Wouldn’t it be more likely that the bikers did what they did- fight and shoot- and the police did what they did- shoot back? Now, you can argue that maybe not everybody shot was shooting. But there is no way the police, in a shootout can tell 99%ers from 1%ers. (More on that later.)
Here are the facts:
A deadly weekend shootout involving rival motorcycle gangs apparently began with a parking dispute and someone running over a gang member’s foot, police said Tuesday.
Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said an uninvited group appeared for Sunday’s meeting of a loose confederation of biker gangs at a restaurant.
There is no one denying this to be true. A rival gang showed up and started a fight. It’s not like it hasn’t happened before and before and before. ( I like the last one, it was at a toy giveaway for tots at Christmas! I have to share!)
(Three people, including a firefighter collecting donated presents for children, were wounded Sunday when gunfire erupted between rival motorcycle gangs gathered for a Christmas toy drive at a Riverside County saloon, authorities said.
The shootings occurred about 3:30 p.m. outside Maverick Steakhouse in Norco, where participants in the Spark of Love toy drive — most of them bikers — delivered toys to be distributed to needy children.
Authorities said none of the injuries was life-threatening. About 100 bikers were being detained late Sunday for questioning, sheriff’s officials said.
The incident left toy drive organizers demoralized. Jeanette Seay, 39, of Brea said local law enforcement had been wary of the event because it involved so many bikers.
“They didn’t want us in their town, and this is why,” she said.)
Hmmm… a lesson here??
And the bikers are deadly to police. This undercover officer was shotgunned serving a warrant on a Mongols biker gang.
One man was injured when a vehicle rolled over his foot. That caused a dispute that continued inside the restaurant, where fighting and then shooting began, before the melee spilled back outside, Swanton said.
Authorities offered few details. It was not clear which gang was responsible for running over the biker’s foot or which gang the aggrieved biker belonged to.
When the shootout was over, nine people were dead and 18 wounded.
Police have said five biker gangs from across Texas had gathered in part to settle differences over turf.
Jimmy Graves, who described himself as an ambassador for the gang known as the Bandidos, disputed that claim, saying the groups had planned to discuss laws protecting motorcycle riders and other topics such as trademarks for club logos.
But he acknowledged that differences with other groups, such as the Cossacks, have been “simmering and brewing.”
According to some reports the dead were Cossacks. That makes some sense.
What bothers me is the instant criticism from the “treepers” on how wrong it was to kill bikers en masse. I’ll argue there were two hundred bikers, nine got killed maybe not all by police and the rest arrested. A shitty massacre if you ask me. Sounds like the police quit shooting when bikers quit screwing around with their guns. A massacre is when you kill them all, not nine out of two hundred. Seriously, get a dictionary.
One poster bitched there was video of the police with “assault rifles” entering the restaurant. To which I reply “I hope the so! They were in a gunfight. There are no rules in a gunfight! Except one- bring the biggest gun you have you can shoot accurately!” And the fact ONLY bikers were shot is a sign the police did just that. Had they had only pistols, God know where some of the rounds would have ended up.
But that doesn’t stop the criticism. In the defense of the Treepers, the authorities, especially under Obama lie a lot. But there is a difference in this particular case. However, this is the type of comments I’ve seen- this being a calmer one.
“If the police were stationed at Don Carlos restaurant surveying TP from outside, then where was the threat to them or another biker, and HOW could they perceive from a distance what was going on in the parking lot? Who exactly was in the parking lot having a dispute with a biker…… and was there an ear piece and microphone being surveyed by cops in another area. C’mon, it doesn’t take tinfoil to know police know how to survey from a distance or in a van with mic on a plant.
This is not Darren Wilson, a single cop out doing his duty keeping streets safe. This was a sting of some sort planned in advance. The police already admitted there were off duty police in the area, yeah right. I doubt the police were going to just mill around and grab a donut. They had a goal, an agenda. What was it? To instigate a disturbance because Twin Peaks and bikers were not saluting their warnings? Finally arrest and catch some MC bikers? Follow the money? An ex-marine was killed too.”
One of the other posters noted a slightly different story. Hopefully, she won’t get hammered like I did.
Just one of the dozens of bikers inside a Texas restaurant during a wild gang shootout fired a gun, security video showed.
Nearly 200 people were arrested after the bloody Sunday rampage in the parking lot of Waco’s Twin Peaks “breastaurant.” The shootout among rival bike gangs left nine people dead and another 18 injured.
None of the nine surveillance video angles released to the Associated Press showed the parking lot, where the gunfire erupted after one member’s foot was run over, cops said.
However, video did record Twin Peaks’ patio. At least three people were holding handguns, but only one fired into the parking lot, the video showed.
Uh… I guess this is where the ATF (who I hate BTW) did some ninja stuff and got bikers to shoot at bikers INSIDE the restaurant.
Sundance was demanding video and thinks if the police won’t share with him, they must be hiding something. What if the video they do release shows exactly what happened- the biker gangs shot at each other, and the police shot them. Then what? (More on that later too.)
Let’s talk weapons:
Cops said they discovered at least 1,000 weapons inside the blood-splattered restaurant after the shooting, but later announced that estimated number may have been a high guess. By Wednesday night, police recovered 318 weapons — 118 handguns, 157 knives and 43 others, including an AK-47 — but were still counting more.
The knives, guns and blunt objects were stashed around Twin Peaks — including in its toilets and inside bags of tortilla chips — and were likely left in a rush effort to ditch evidence.
Hmmm…. 118 handguns out of two hundred bikers. That’s a lot of guns- for a peaceful meeting to discuss political agendas. I’m thinking somebody isn’t being truthful, or maybe someone at TCTH will claim they were all “throw downs.” On a side note, notice how the bikers threw away the evidence so they can’t get charged. (Even more on that later.)
Now I will admit freely anytime I see ATF near something I get nervous. They are a horrible agency that truly does screw up a lot from Ruby Ridge to Waco to Fast and Furious. They are political. Nobody likes them. And they get into so much trouble the FBI gets tired of bailing them out. I’m hoping it wasn’t the ATF shooters that got all the bikers. If so, I won’t change my mind on the accountability for the bikers- after all they started it- but it would go a long way to explaining what TCTH guys think were itchy fingers.
Let’s talk police response. Bottom line is the police tried to stop the meeting. Why? Because prior meetings caused violent confrontations and the police officer’s duties are these: “Keep you safe, keep your family safe, keep your stuff safe.” Now, one “treeper” took exception to my stating such. He conflates what the police are forced to do by their political handlers with what they are innately designed to do. I remember my Chief coming up with yet another program. I told him what I said here, “Chief our job is simple, keep people safe, their families safe, their shit safe. If after we accomplish that we have time and energy to do others things then fine. But UNTIL then, we have to stay on course.”
He didn’t listen. He had a degree and stuff… .
But I still believe the police should find ways to avoid killing first. Yes, there has been a militarization of the police and I am against it. And yes, some of the newer generation may be quick on the trigger because of bad training and tactics. But they are facing a country that is starting to fray. And they are getting killed far too often for just wearing a uniform. What would you do?
What should the police do when they have the following facts before them: 1. Rival biker gangs are assembling in a public place occupied by innocent civilians. 2. The bikers are armed. 3. The bikers have had violent confrontations before, in a public place occupied by innocent civilians, so obviously they don’t give a shit about people. 4. It is the job of the police to prevent innocent people from getting hurt or killed.
Sundance- who runs TCTH and is very good at what he does, hasn’t offered a resolution, just complaints.
So have many others, including the complaint that this is part and parcel of the government’s effort to disarm America… yeah I know. Fast and Furious was that. This was a fuck up extraordinaire. But at some point people just can’t tell them apart with Obama and his ilk pulling every frayed thread they can find on this sweater called America.
Truth is, sometimes there are only a series of bad choices and you pick the least bad one to work with. In this case, the police tried to move the meeting. The owner, now facing millions of dollars in lawsuits, claims that didn’t happen. I’m going with the police on this one only because that makes sense. First rule of a fight- stop it from happening in the first place DIFFUSE the situation. Cop 1o1.
Prepositioning snipers and shooters. I’m less happy with this, but the alternative would be to not station nearby, knowing full well there was better than a fifty-fifty chance of a shootout (remember earlier links above- there have been many). So, this is a big meeting, a right to assemble, by a group of people including violent armed members of well established biker gangs. What to do…
I challenged Sundance to give his ROE’s. Let’s see how that plays out. In this case, I am confused about the fact the bikers knew we knew- they knew- we knew AND THEY STILL STARTED SHOOTING!! What is the IQ of some of these idiots?? “Hey Ralph, I think there are police snipers on the roof just waiting for us to do something stupid, so how about I shoot this guy right here!”
And it’s the cops’ fault…
Now it wasn’t like there were five bikers, or ten, or twenty. There were two hundred bikers and maybe twenty police?
Some of the arrested:
How in the world do you manage that? And worse, as some have complained not all the shot were 1%ers but honestly, how do you tell them apart? Shoot only the ones with guns? The ones shooting guns? And how long do you hesitate? Long enough that they shoot off a round and hit a child? Live with that…
Let’s talk wannabes. I believe, firmly believe, that there is no such thing as a part time thug. These 99%ers show up, play the part and worse ENABLE the 1%ers, who commit most of the crime. And for what? Coolness? The chance to dip your toe in the bad boy pool like a teenage girl wanting to date the “bad boy” in school? Jeeeez… grow up. Would we forgive people who wanted to be Bloods or Crips or BGF? No, of course not. But here, because it is cool, too many think the police did it wrong.
I realize we love the anti-authority meme in our society. Everybody loves Billy the Kid- a sociopathic killer. But nobody likes Pat Garrett who stopped him from more killing. Everybody knows Bonnie and Clyde. Can you, off the top of your head, name the police officers who stopped their crime spree. So yeah, I get it. I just think it is bullshit. I dealt with wannabes and they shot, beat and robbed just as efficiently as full timers. Worse sometimes because they were working harder to “make it” in the gang.
Those bikers 1%ers and 99%ers all showed up to a place and time where there was a very, very good chance violence would occur. And when it did, they all threw down their guns, hid the evidence, tried to avoid their part in it, and screamed “cops set us up!” Really??
Which brings me to the “criminal history” part of this. Bikers by their nature (travel in packs, tightnit groups) are hard to interdict. They can traffic in drugs easily- how many bikers can one cop on patrol stop when they travel in thirty or fifty to a pack? They can carry weapons and dump them easily. They can intimidate any patrolman by using sheer numbers. So catching them is hard, unless you target them- which seems to be “unfair” to some. Many officers- local, state and federal- have went undercover to make cases. None of them came out saying “Hey these guys are really cool! They just love biking and getting toys for kids at Christmas.” Instead, they come out with stories that would curl your hair about what bikers do.
I was in the Vagos two-and-a-half years, I got into a lot of bar fights,” he said. “There was violence, there were serious crimes, every type of organized crime, murder, embezzlement, drug dealing. “I had to hold back, be observant, because if I committed a crime, I would be [locked up] too.
“Two of the members did a home invasion and a murder.
“They bought a lot of drugs and guns.”
Falco’s secret wiretaps and testimony led to 25 Vagos members going to prison for firearms, drug, assault and murder convictions.
He ended up in hiding in the witness protection program. “But I started to miss doing something I saw as important,” he said.
With two other undercover agents, Falco infiltrated a Mongols chapter in Virginia on the East Coast. Inside the Mongols from 2004 to 2005, he found similarities with the Vagos, “but they were much, much more violent.” “The difference between the Mongols and all other biker gangs is they brought in outside Hispanic street gang members,” he said. “They were 18, 19, 20 years old and they were willing to go to prison, they expected to.
“So they would go where the Hells Angels were. There might be cameras, but they’d walk right up and blow them away. “They almost stabbed a Hells Angel to death at a Chuck E. Cheese pizza joint … in front of children.
“They don’t care if they get caught.”
The Mongols were at war with the Mexican mafia. Falco’s chapter concentrated on dealing in methamphetamine and cocaine, and “planning and hunting down Hells Angels.”
“That’s what they live for,” he said.
“It doesn’t matter where they are, they have to continue the war against the Angels.
“It’s the same with the Outlaws.
Even the supporters of the biker gangs don’t deny the violence or the crime. It is like dealing with a bi-polar off his meds. “Yeah, they are badassed man, dangerous…but not deadly, kind cool…and lethal and criminal man….but not that much of a threat…except when they are! You dig right?”
No, not really. Like I said, everybody liked Billy the Kid except for the people he killed.
I’m convinced the reason the Waco PD and DA overcharged the whole group was to hang onto them until they could figure out what happened. RICO won’t stand for the lot of them. But some may find themselves in the soup over this. Hey this isn’t the sixties baby. We have contact DNA capability now. (So that means all those guns and knives will have DNA and guess what we have in custody on a felony- which means the police can get DNA. Hmmm…. “That ain’t my gun that matched up to the bullet found in the car in front of the concealed officers!” “We have your DNA on the grips and fingerprints on the unfired cases. You want to take another shot at your explanation?” Guess who has a record now baby!)
Let’s set some points here:
1. Being a 99%er is not cool, and it is dangerous to everyone including you. It enables and reinforces the 1%ers who everybody agrees are very deadly and criminal. You want to ride with them. Fine. You get arrested, shot up or dead, don’t bitch.
2. The police aren’t into conspiracy. Unless it is the ATF, then all bets are off. In this case, IF the local police were sucked into something, the conspiracy won’t hold. Just like in Boston, when the locals found out the FBI knew the suspects BEFORE the bombing, the locals will let it out.
3. Just because it is a clusterfuck does not mean it is a coverup. I’m pretty sure we’ll know who shot who as much as possible in what was literally a combat zone. Which should remind everyone out there that being a police officer in a situation close to anarchy as you can get at a boobie bar, is very dangerous.
4. I’m willing to listen to anyone who has a better idea on how the police could have handled a shootout, in a public place, with innocent civilians at risk. How many babies, women and men do we let get killed before the police stop it? Just a question.
5. This HUGE crime scene is not going to be sorted out in a day. Hell, it may never be totally sorted out. And no, the police aren’t going to release all the video just to make us internet junkies happy.
6. However, if it turns out dozens of rounds were fired by the bikers and some of those rounds were aimed at the police, will the conspiracy theorists let it go?
7. Lastly, don’t let this event allow the Left to push any anti-gun agenda. The guns didn’t start the shootout- idiot bikers did. Like they have before and will again. That is the nature of a free society. We have to put up with fools doing stupid things. My issue is we don’t have to like it or support it.
They are criminals after all, and we aren’t. Screw Billy the Kid.